I'm really disappointed to see that the DB workers are to withdraw their services from the travelling public for a time on Monday 16 Feb.
Minister Sleeveen must be delighted that they are playing his game. Why on earth do they have to respond like that? The minister doesn't give a damn. If he did, he'd have done something to improve the public transport system in Dublin a long time ago.
BUSRAGE Discussions » Government and Politics
Strike Action
(25 posts)-
Posted 4 years ago #
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I agree RS,but sadly it`s a scenario which has to be played out.
There are various factions preparing far more significant action and this "Controlled" venting of anger is one way of keeping these politicaly inspired folks onside.
However there is a real sense that Brennan is NOT winning the battle on this topic and thus we are also in danger of throwing away a big dollop of Public support.
Heads we win....Heads we lose ..??Posted 4 years ago # -
Are there any newspapers willing to print the drivers' side of the story—on the front page? How about RTÉ? If the media do not help out with getting the users of public transportation on the side of the people that actually are responsible for moving them from home to work/etc. and back, then it is a case of heads they win, tails you lose all right >:-(
Posted 4 years ago # -
Too True.......Just as with LUAS bringing journo`s to see Trams in other European cities,our Dept have a far larger "Entertainment" budget than NBRU/SIPTU (Bus Workers Branch)Posted 4 years ago #
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And anyway much of the media is still involved in the OLD unions vs The people nonsense..!Posted 4 years ago #
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Unfortunately for the drivers, the hostility of the media drives a significant part of public opinion.
There always has been a bigger agenda than simply Luas bashing and driver baiting.
Follow the Money.
[posted by: Luaswatcher]Posted 4 years ago # -
Well, the revenue losses caused by the massive traffic jams (uncounted hours in lost production, etc.) will result in far less money to follow. Each full bus takes what, about 90 single-occupant cars off the road…?
Oh, and the media slant against the unions, or at least the membership of said unions, is tantamount to libel. Looks like the papers and the telly should be sent off to Mountjoy, from my POV at least…Posted 4 years ago # -
Forget the media, they don't get the buses. Don't shoot yourselves in the feet by listening to the Minister for Stupidity and Press Statements as if he had something inteligent to say.
Be very careful on the moral high ground because it's easy to be knocked off it.
If the Minister for Stupidity and Press Statements insists on making a fool of himself in the media, let him. He has nothing to say!Posted 4 years ago # -
As for the so-called moral high ground, what results would treading the immoral low ground produce? or indeed what ground to stand on to get results...?Posted 4 years ago #
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why not say if we don;t get the information we need we will have 2 weeks ( or longer ) of no fare days . it has apparently been proven that no fare days will get more people on to the buses without causing disruptions to people like me , the joe soap ordinary bus user .
any withdrawl of service will get people off the buses and into thier cars . once thats done i would imagine it will be very difficult to get them back on the buses .
money is the only thing politicians understand and if the powers that be in Dublin Bus realise they stand to loose a lot of it maybe they will put a little pressure to bear on the powers that be in brennans department . sadly it seems brennan has been ignoring the unions .
i hope the drivers get what they want but i also hope it is not at the expense of the general public .
cheers
Linda
p.s i don;t read newspapers so what the media says means nothing to me .Posted 4 years ago # -
Here here Linda. I agree fully with you.
Although I own an annual travel pass (paid for through deductions from my pay) I would fully support a campaign of "no fare" days. A few of them would make the Minister for Silly Press Statments sit up and take notice.
Furthermore, the transport workers would have the support of the public.Posted 4 years ago # -
True RS.
The NF Day is an innovative protest method.
However I suspect that no more of these will be tolerated by Managment.
The reaction from both Fine Gael and The PD`s following the last NF day means that if such an event is planned for the future BAC management will most likely decline to allocate duties and thus no-fares day will become no-bus day.
If the Unions were any way savvy in the public relationa field they would be providing a facility for passengers to make a donation equivalent to their Busfare which would then be passed on to a basket of charities.
Remember this concept worked very well indeed in the immediate aftermath of Euro Changeover when the Change-Ticket was suspended.
Such a move would present the Minister and his PD/FG axis of support with a rather nice little problem to solve.
I would however be personally in favour of us drivers NOT being paid for this days protest,thus reducing pressure on the Company which in this present instance is Powerless to make any effective response to the Ministers vindictive meddling in what was supposed to be a stand-alone subsidiary of CIE.Posted 4 years ago # -
The no fare day was a success as it proved that given the right condition's people will use the bus.It also proved that DB can do the job as good as ,and I believe better than, any private operators.People left their car's at home and traffic was lighter as a result.The answer to our transport problem's is within this country.Proper funding is needed,proper QBC's in the city centre, not just out in suburb's where generally they're aren't required,genuine bus priority in places where buses regularly get held up and a more senisible fare stucture(1 coin 1 journey etc) including the push to try and get more people using prepaid ticket's.If these thing's happen it'll go a long way to sorting out our problem's without Brennan's mates taking our money out of this country in their pocket's.Although I agree that hampering joe public is not in our best interest's,I see little else we can do.More no fare day's will only damage the company,which will lead to less money being available for us to do the job as best we can,which would only give Brennan more soundbites to feed to the media.He or his department won't lose out in no fare day's and he certainly won't increase subvention to cover any cost's accrued by them, so the only thing to do is for joe public to stand with the transpot worker's and demand the proper level's of subvention and bus infrastructure etc so we can start solving this city's transport problems.
[posted by: Graham]Posted 4 years ago # -
True for you Graham.
I am a Joe Public and I know that Dublin Bus can supply the service, if they are allowed to, and if the proper structures, support and resources are made available.
As well as what you say, there are very simple things that can be done to improve services, provided they are allowed happen.
On example is that buses pulling away from bus stops should have priority. Make the little space hogging stupid motorist, that thinks he knows everything and who thinks he's an expert driver, give way!
On street parking in all locations should be banned. The City Fathers wouldn't like that though.
ENFORCE the existing bus lane and priority areas vigourously and consistently.
Place a penalty fee on the stupid space hogging motorists who want to come into the city centre area, no matter for what reason.
These are all some solutions to the problem, BEFORE you throw out what I consider is a good public transport company.Posted 4 years ago # -
at least i did not spend an hour waiting 4 a bus as I knew it was not going to come
[posted by: A2000]Posted 4 years ago # -
The problem with DB is that they have a severe lack of management. They have good staff but way too many staff. The unions have too much power and are too militant and they really dont understand that DEREGULATION IS GOING TO HAPPEN!!! Whether the directive comes from europe or from Leinster house it will happen. The unions cant comprehend this and still belive that they will stop deregulation with stike action. When they do this all they are achieveing is a decrease in the support from the ordinary decent public for their cause.
The unions have two choices- 1)they can bargain with brennan+try save as many of there members jobs as they can(because CIE workforce will be halved overnight WHEN deregulation occours) or, 2)They can strike and stike and strike so much that when deregulation occours they wont have a clue what is going on.
My money is on the latter due to the typical militancy nature of Irish Public Sector Unions in CIE.
[posted by: Bar]Posted 4 years ago # -
because CIE workforce will be halved overnight WHEN deregulation occours
Will some/most/all of this workforce be hired by other operators?Posted 4 years ago # -
Bar 1....Danger here of confusion of terms.
Deregulation is most certainly NOT what we are going to get.
One of the oddest misconceptions about Government and EU transport policy is a belief that it entails Deregulation and Privatization as an integral part of its core value.
IT DOES NOT.
A quick glance through "Grosser Europa"will reveal a wealth of different public models some publicly centred others with a varying degree of private input.
However it is largely agreed that those models which are regularly held up as being desireable tend to be Publicly Operated often with an amount of supporting extra "Tendered" capacity.
In our case although we posess a publicly owned system,it is run and regulated in a manner which is far from "Best Practice"
This deficiency is long running and dates back to the foundation of the State and the methodology which saw CIE become a pawn for whichever Minister happened to be in power.
Whilst CIE can be repeatedly held up as a cause celebre of Bad Public Transport management,this charge cannot be levelled without acknowledging that NO policy decision was ever made by a CIE board without having to be fully approved by a selection of Senior Civil Servants and finally the sitting Minister.
This realization still appears to elude the ebulient Mr Brennan who is proceeding on a course of demolition with absolutely no proposals regarding what if any infrastructure will replace the present one.
The disasterous events of last week have exposed a very basic deficiency in the Capitals basic public transport infrastructure namely a total absence of any designated space for co-ordinated Bus Termini.
Interestingly this most basic flaw remains completely unaddressed in the Brennan Plan.
Indeed taken to its logical finale,Dublin could end up with a 100% privately run Bus Service with each operator being responsible only for its operations and a central authority which as yet is merely referred to by Minister Brennan as being one of the desirable elements which will come about AFTER the routes themselves are shaken out.
This total absence of hard detail relating to the Regulation and Supervision of the Bus market is a telling point indeed and is one very strong reason for now seeking a postponment of any further movement on this scheme UNTIL a much clearer set of FIRM proposals are made public on the Infrastructural details.
The entire Bus Operation area is far from simple and Mr Brennan may well be only finding that out somewhat late in the day.
The central issue is far deeper than merely some accountancy driven or financially inspired quick fix solution.
This State has already had it fill of those.
Remember the initial decision of CJ Haughey to order the Board of CIE to cease work on the Temple Bar/Batchelors Walk Bus Station project without providing them with ANY alternative to pursue virtually condemned Dublin to Thirty Years of Public Transport stagnation and this is finally being recognized as something which needs IMMEDIATE attention.
Sadly it seems as if Seamus reckons that its all easy-peasy....Posted 4 years ago # -
Deregulation? Why on earth would you (Bar) want an absence of regulation? What would that achieve? No regulation as to what bus services should be available, when, at what price, and what about health and safety? You are completely incorrect when you say that deregulation is coming. If it is, then there will be a free for all for every cowboy mini-bus operator to do exactly as they please.
There MUST be regulation, otherwise you'll have chaos.
Privatisation? What the hell will that do? It'll be nice for the privateer bus operator to provide a "service" that he pleases, not what the public needs. And of course if there is no regulation you will then have to whistle for a bus.
Competition is the answer. Open the routes for competition and for new services to be provided for operators and let the public decide by requesting the bus of their choice to stop for them. Funnily enough, you'll probably find it'll be the first one to come along, provided the integrated ticket they bought is acceptable, in the case of a privateer.
No doubt the Minister for Transport Chaos will continue to muddle along, not getting the plot or understanding the problem.Posted 4 years ago # -
Competition = deregulation, i.e. to a degree. And since you cannot make money on bus service except during rush-hours, look for no competition to ensue, not to mention even worse service.
Posted 4 years ago # -
Point taken Al. Look at it another way, if you have competition you MUST have regulation.
I also take the point that there probably won't be a competitive bus service on routes and runs where buses are not filled to capacity, on on those that are. Therefore, no competition.
All that the Minister has to do is provide a good reliable public transport service. Isn't that his job???????????????????
So what's he doing about it then, apart from stopping Dublin Bus improving its service?Posted 4 years ago # -
what i meant by deregulation was the granting of more licenses by the gov, to private transport companies and the breaking up of CIE ie more competition. My appologies for the misunderstanding.
I do want competition on more routes because its my personal belief that it would be best for the public. I understand that the transport sector is not and never has been a money making industry in any parts of the world. However, I think that having a state monopoly who controls, city,suburban and intercity rail and bus routes is an absoloute joke. As a result the transport sector will still have to be subsidised WHEN CIE is broken up, I have no problem with this, this is the way it is in most countries (and for the record the Irish transport sector is at the moment the least subsidiesd in the entire EU!!!). I dont want competition or deregulation at the pace or speed in which British Rail was done. That was done in such a mannor that they are contemplating about renationalising the whole service because all the cowboys overthere are cutting corners when it comes to safety and maintanence of the industry.
Privatisation is the new buss word in politics, like a fad or something. I dont think there is anything wrong with it i think it will be very good for the public. However, what is wrong is the fact that Brennan is so incompetent that he just wants to privatise the whole industry and to hell with everyone else. What they need is to have a good plan. They need to plan it stage by stage as to what they want to happen, or what they will do. For the moment the only plan we have is "25% of routes privatised by next year." I mean what kind of a fool is he, what kind of a remark is that to make, thats not even a statement.
RS...you are right, for competition to take place you MUST have regulation, but the sort of regulation you dont want is one which is free from government interference and red tape with good management and resources. Which will not happen.
[posted by: Bar]Posted 4 years ago # -
However, I think that having a state monopoly who controls, city,suburban and intercity rail and bus routes is an absoloute joke
Why? It works extremely well in other parts of the world. Perhaps you would prefer regional, but also government-controlled, agencies instead? because you don't want fully private operations (yes, they are that bad).
Let me tell you about private city bus operation. The buses are dirty, old (usually far older than a subsidised state-run operation would permit), often not climate-controlled, and where permitted to set their own timetables they provide little to no service after evening rush-hours and certainly no night service of their own volition.
Note that the DUTC does not exist anymore. If private operation were viable, they would. Also, the operator of the 66 route (for one example) would never have been a state-run company but Barton's Coach (based in Maynooth). There is a reason why Barton's won't touch the 66 or even any of the commuter provincial service in its base area of operations…Posted 4 years ago # -
Al I fear that your gettin bogged down in the dogma thing again which dominates the discussion,just as Seamie wants.
Y`see as long as the fellow has us all arguing about the politics of his proposals he is certain that nobody will be looking at the catual specifics.
The lack of specifics is the single most glaring omission in this mans present plans.
Take the events of last Saturday week.
One of the relevant points now emerging is the amount of apprehension which is out there relating to City Centre termini/stops.
Nowhere in any of the Ministers pronouncements has mention been made of infrastructure in the City.
It appears that Mr B simply intends his lucky Franchisees to move in and take up where BAC left off.
However in the wake of the Wellington Quay accident it is increasingly likely that the Insurers of a successful Franchisee will seek to limit their exposure to both Road Traffic Act AND Third Party liability claims.
This may well involve the Insurer seeking a comprehensive Risk Analysis on EACH terminus before actually offering cover to operate from it as a Terminus.
If for example such analysis is unfavourable from the insurers point of view then we may well see that same insurer seek a certificate of indemnity from the State.
This may well be conjecture on my part but I firmly believe that it is yet another issue which Minister Brennan has not put any effort into addressing simply because his understanding of the mechanics of Public Transport is far too narrow and dependant upon input from a small group of advisers who may not be best placed to offer unbiased reportage.
Remember it was an executive decision by a former Taoiseach which denied Dublin a central bus terminal.
The famous Temple Bar directive which left CIE stranded after nearly a decade of planning and accquisition has been the single most regressive issue which the Citys Public Transport users have had to endure.
Sadly some 30 years later it appears as if one of the few political remnants from the CJH era is intent on compounding that error.
It is an unbelievably sad state of affairs which is NOT going to be addressed by Franchising,Competition,Sub Contracting or any Buzz word solution.
This public defecit can ONLY be addressed by the Administration putting its resources behind the concept of PUBLIC transport which sadly is not one of Seamus Brennans priorities.Posted 4 years ago # -
What's the situation on July August strike action?
Are Aug.23/24 still on for
stoppages?Posted 4 years ago #
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