Why do buses travel in convoys - you miss one, you miss four?
What is the reasoning behind it ? I have seen this infuriating and enduring situation operate in a range of traffic conditions over 35 years of bus use but it's most noticeable when traffic is light.
Customers hate waiting for an indeterminate period for a bus and yet as a user I see no evidence that anyone with any control over this does anything to reduce waiting times. Anyone like to enlighten me or am I just another thick uppity passenger who doesn't know his place ?
[posted by: Much Put Upon]
BUSRAGE Discussions » General Issues
Convoys
(52 posts)-
Posted 4 years ago #
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This generally happen's when a bus leave's a teminus late and get's hammered on it's way out because it's late.The next bus leaves on time and because the one in front is getting hammered the one the one that left on time is getting very few Pax and therefore catches the one in front up very quickly.They then carry on out overtaking each other(or not when you have a poller behind you) along the way but never getting any distance between them.Hence the convoy.It usually occur's at busy termini when the stance man isn't around.
[posted by: Graham]Posted 4 years ago # -
As Graham sez,Convoyism is generally a result of a combination of ingredients which can include LOCAL traffic disruption,Poor Radio Control,and Driver error/cunning.
For example on the 11 route heading Northbound from Kilmacud in the evening it may take an hour to reach the Goat Pub.
Once one is past the Goat the traffic often frees out and is easily managable all the way to the City.
The five scheduled buses which were stuck Upstream of the Goat all catch up and operate to-gether.
The Uppity Passengers DOWNSTREAM of the Goat dont know (Or Care) about the Traffic Problems in Minister Brennans constituency and so give the Driver Loads.
I have taken to handing out Minister Brennans Constituency Office Phone Number and advising the Uppity ones to ring and Bitch to Him as he is a Powerful Thrusting figure who has a can-do attitude and probably will-do if he thinks theres a vote to be had in it.
However just to give the Uppity Thick Passenger a crumb of comfort I would also agree that the Radio Control system is Far from acceptable and worse still,since the arrival of the new TaiT system it leaves the individual driver in complete ignorance of what is happening on the "Road" in general.
Therefore the Individual Driver who gets hit upon by the Uppity Stupid etc really does NOT have a clue as to what is going on with the route in general.
This by the way is known as technological progress and cost the company in the region of €5.5 million......Posted 4 years ago # -
I have never seen anything as ridiculous as the amount of 46A's that arrive on O'Connell bridge together some with only 1 passenger on it. You could see up to 6 123's one after the other but they are always fairly heavy loaded so warrant the amount of busses on the route. The 39's run close together as do the 78A's and they are also always full too. I also find it hadr to understand when on the Whitworth Road a 40, 40A and 40C all come together with 2 or 3 people on each when they are all going to the same terminus in Finglas. These routes are mostly AV operated since the withdrawl of the P class which makes it even more of a waste.
[posted by: A2000]Posted 4 years ago # -
While those 46A's might be empty on O'Connell Street they are all full by the time they reach Leeson Street!!!
With regard to the 40 group, each route serves a huge part of Finglas, infact residents kicked up last month when the 40C was re-routed so although a large part of the routes are the same there is an individual need for each service.
[posted by: P]Posted 4 years ago # -
A2K its a question of being selective about where you carry out your obbos.
While I would agree that the entire Stillorgan QBC concept is massively oversold and suffers greatly from a lack of structured development the fact remains that it is very succesful at its task.
And as P. sez those empty 46A`s were`nt empty all the way from Kingstown....Bud....!Posted 4 years ago # -
I know how traffic contributes to convoyism but I was referring to how non-traffic issues add to the problem.
My main concern is about the scheduling of different route numbers to operate in convoys - for instance the appearance of a no. 7 outbound at Trinity College, often means a 45 arrives within seconds. There are countless examples of this kind of scheduling creating convoys when traffic has nothing to do with it.
[posted by: much put upon]Posted 4 years ago # -
I understand that there are situations outside of driver control when convoys build up. As one answer, for example, where there are 2 or 3 buses in convoy, could one of them proceed "expresswise" without stopping to pickup passengers, for a number of stops, stopping only to let people alight. Then let the next one in tow mop up the annoyed passengers (and probably take grief from them as well cos the first bus passed by without stopping).
I'm afraid drivers are in "no win" situations.
What about the "Real Time" timetables? Were these not supposed to be put on trial somewhere. Apparantly this is a system that lets you know, at the bus stop, approximately how long it will take the next bus to arrive. Satellite technology is used for this. Similar systems work for trains.
The advantage of such a system is that passengers would know how long they have to wait and also lets them know how many buses are in the Q.Posted 4 years ago # -
The GPS real time system was (is?) available at the bus shelter on Parkgate Street (and presumably at various shelters en route to Chapelizod and beyond).
I found it quite helpful. If I'd missed a bus I could decide to walk to town or, if there were other options (e.g. the 10, taxi, other routes a few stops away) I could go for one of them.
One 'quirk' was that there were often 'phantom' buses. The display would say 'bus arriving' but there was nothing there.Posted 4 years ago # -
Sounds like no one was bothered to test the system, or review how it was operating. Probably something like the integrated traffic light system that we have in the city, you know, where the light turns green in a sequence that allows you to get up to the next set of lights, just as it has turned red!Posted 4 years ago #
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Sounds like no one was bothered to test the system, or review how it was operating. Probably something like the integrated traffic light system that we have in the city, you know, where the light turns green in a sequence that allows you to get up to the next set of lights, just as it has turned red!Posted 4 years ago #
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Sorry about the repetition above, but the system went haywire as I sent the first message.Posted 4 years ago #
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It has vanished completly off the north clondalkin corridor
[posted by: A2000]Posted 4 years ago # -
Getting back to my original question - which is a simple one - why are buses of different route number that share the same roads for much of their routes, scheduled to travel together causing convoys and increasing waiting times for passengers ? People on this board seem to have an in depth knowledge of the many problems facing BAC but there is a suspicious silence on this one. Do drivers for instance have any opinions on the subject?
[posted by: much put upon]Posted 4 years ago # -
I didn't know that was your question.
I'm used to the 39 route, and no other bus is of any use to me. The 39 can operate in convoys of up to 3 by itself.
I know that the 39 route also shares some of its route with the 37, 38, and 70 but they are of no concern to me. If the 39 is in the middle of a convoy of all of those routes I don't see the convoy, only the bus that I want to get. In other words, it's not a problem.Posted 4 years ago # -
They aren't scheduled to run together.Simple.Occasionally two buses on the same route can be worked in together if there's a big gap but this is rare.Local condition's on each of the route's such as the routinely ignored problem of traffic can lead to buses running together when they meet up.Also route's with termini further out then other one's might meet up with each other despite them leaving at different time's(such as the 66 which can meet both the 66A or 66B when it get's to lexlip).It is impossible in this car ridden city to predict how long it'll take a bus to get from one place to another and so impossible to schedule them to run together.
[posted by: Graham]Posted 4 years ago # -
And by the way,I'm a driver and so is Alek Smart.
[posted by: Graham]Posted 4 years ago # -
I understand that the greater Finglas area is being serviced by 40,40A and 40C but other areas have to have all the area covered by 1 service eg. 27,which covers old 27A and 42C. 39, covering for 39A 39B 39C, 51B covering old 21A 51 51C 68A. and 78A covering 78 78B and 51. These routes make massive detours before heading to the city so why does Finglas get this split into 3 routes. They also have 19, 19A and 83 as well as 17A 104 and 220.
[posted by: A2000]Posted 4 years ago # -
About the 39 and its massive double, no, treble detour before it heads from Blanchardstown into the City Centre.
This is a route that could be split into 3 routes but the Minister for Séamus won't let DB improve the route because he wants to reorganise everything so that his privateer friends can get their hands on the lucrative routes.
The 39 goes everywhere, around the loop at Hartstown/Huntstown - Into and back out of the Blanchardstown Centre on a reverse route (ie buses in either direction have to follow the one route, and then around by Coolmine, before it gets to Blanchardstown.
You must understand that before the 39 bus travels the 2 miles from Clonsilla it has travelled 6 miles or so with at least 26 stops in between (I'm not kidding). No wonder the buses end up in convoy!
When the Minister for Séamus allows Dublin Bus to plan and operate its routes in an efficient manner he will find there is no need to bring in the privateers, or reorganise the transport company.Posted 4 years ago # -
I just want to make it clear that I'm a regular bus commuter. While DB can and has got some things badly wrong on the 39 route recently, it has listened to reason and replaced the previous services.
I am happy that I can get from my house in Huntstown to work in the City Centre in less than an hour on most days using the excellent 39A service (no detours). I would prefer that a similar reverse service was operated in the evenings instead of the reduction to two 39Bs, but the Minister for Séamus thinks I would prefer to wait a year for a privateer than introduce an improved evening service.
Blame the Department of Transport for the shambles. Don't take it out on the Bus Drivers. They have to suffer the fools everyday.Posted 4 years ago # -
This quote is attributed to Gaius Petronius, AD 66. He was some sort of advisor to Emperor Nero before the Romans had buses. The Minister for Séamus might like to ponder this before he rushes headlong into reorganisation of Dublin Bus.
"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up in teams, we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress whilst producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation. "
Posted 4 years ago # -
An apt quote,Well in rs
[posted by: Graham]Posted 4 years ago # -
Regarding the 7 and 45 that much put upon mentions, you have to bear in mind that these are two completely separate routes operated from two separate garages. There is no interaction in the two schedules - they are prepared completely independent of one another. The fact that two are scheduled to depart their respective termini together is pure chance.
While the 7 and 45 share the same route to Blackrock, at least 50% of both routes is completely different to one another, i.e. that beyond Blackrock.
The same applies in other cases such as the 15 group of routes and the 49 or 65/B for example.
[posted by: Observer]Posted 4 years ago # -
I use the 7 and 45 as an example only, there are plenty of others. The fact that the schedules for the 45 and the 7 are compiled from two different garages is neither here nor there. What matters is what happens on the street If BAC can't co ordinate scheduling then one of the main reasons for having a single bus operator falls. You know, it doesn't matter a toss that the two routes diverge after a few miles. The services exist to serve everyone, not just those who are travelling all the way to the terminus. In fact lots of people want to travel along between town and Blackrock - they are people too you know and deserve the best service that can be provided !!!
If I worked for a bus company that was in danger of losing a large portion of it's routes (and if I cared about it), I would be looking for as many ways as possible not to annoy the public. Reduced waiting times for as many people as possible would go a long way in this regard. Is it not common sense that if you are running three buses along a road, the public gets a better service if one bus travels every 5 minutes rather than 3 buses every 15 minutes ?????????? If the 3 buses diverge after a few miles along their individual routes, so what ? Isn't their an immediate improvement for all those who live along the shared route - is this not worth having or aiming for. The excuse that timetables are not co-ordinated because they are compiled at different garages, speaks volumes about attitudes at Dublin Bus to the travelling public.
[posted by: Much Put Upon]Posted 4 years ago # -
Fair point! In this day and age with computerisation, it shouldn't be outside capabilities to improve scheduling.Posted 4 years ago #
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Regarding the 7 and 45 that much put upon mentions, you have to bear in mind that these are two completely separate routes operated from two separate garages
?? Unless DB did not update their web site, the 7 and the 45 both operate out of Donnybrook, as they have for many decades…
And to fix the convoy problem, the buses ought to be operated like the trains are, with scheduled departure times from particular bus stops along the route, and severe penalisation to drivers who depart the time points early. That is how other bus operations agencies in different parts of the world do it…Posted 4 years ago # -
Well other Bus Companies Do and they dont.....
Recent posts to one of the UK Bus fora revealed a hell of a lot of dissatisfaction from both Motorists AND Bus Passengers who had to sit behind and on Buses being driven deliberately slowly in order to adhere to clock-points en route.
One of our biggest problems in Dublin is the sheer level of unpredictability which we must endure.
We have no median to which we can refer.
Take the route 11,it may take up to 45 mins to merely circumnavigate Sandyford Industrial Estate on any given evening,yet the next evening it can be done in 15 mins...
I dont believe we have a computer capable of sorting such sheer bloody mindedness.
As for the 7 and 45...It would do a heck of a lot for the general service reliability if one or other of these routes was terminated at Merrion Sq..at least until somebody invents a computer powerful enough to motivate a Garda to walk down from the "Post" outside Leinster House and Point out the Limits of the Yellow Box to each and every motorist sitting on the bloody thing..This might allow at least some of the advertised bus journeys to actually operate rather than sit immobile behind the Box Sitters for 5 or 6 changes of Traffic Signal.Posted 4 years ago # -
Recent posts to one of the UK Bus fora revealed a hell of a lot of dissatisfaction from both Motorists AND Bus Passengers who had to sit behind and on Buses being driven deliberately slowly in order to adhere to clock-points en route
That is called bad scheduling; either that, or it is padding of the schedule either in anticipation of bad traffic patterns or to prevent successful competition with the automobile.
The way I have seen it done, is that the bus is never operated in a mind-numbingly slow fashion so as to discourage passenger ridership or raise the ire of motorists due to the bus blocking traffic; but, if the driver reaches the time-point early (either due to speeding or what-not), then the bus waits at the time-point until the departure time arrives (and the idea is to locate this bus stop at a time point that has parking space sufficient enough to be out of the flow of traffic).
This scheduling system does indeed work…Posted 4 years ago # -
I forgot, the Minister for Transport is responsible for scheduling. Dublin Bus are not allowed to improve a schedule without permission from the Minister for Transport Chaos.
That's a fact. Therefore, if scheduling is a mess, it's his doing. Of course the reason is that he wants to buy time for the privateers to take over 25% of the routes so that fares can increase, just like the proposed tram fares.
What a farce!Posted 4 years ago # -
The Minister for Transport has to approve all schedule changes…? Did the Reds take over Ireland while I was away?
That would explain it all, then. At these other transportation agencies I was mentioning, the scheduling is the responsibility of those who know how to do it.Posted 4 years ago #
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